Little Green Footballs

Tuesday, March 11, 2008

Simple question, simple answer

LGFW is always happy to answer any little question Charles Johnson throws out on to the interweb. Here's his latest post attacking Juan Cole (not the first time by the way).

Anti-American professor Juan Cole has rather famously claimed that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was “misquoted” in his infamous “Israel must be wiped off the map” statement. Search Google for that phrase and you’ll find tons of lefty and Islamist web sites eagerly promoting Cole’s obfuscation.

So how will the malevolent Juan Cole and his useful idiot followers explain this?

Well Charles, where shall we begin?

1. You assert that Juan Cole claimed that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was 'misquoted'. You're correct he did, and as Juan can actually speak and read Farsi (he's translates works in Arabic too) I'd take his word above yours.

2. By implication you're claiming that Ahmadinejad wasn't misquoted even though anyone able to read English would be able to see that the poster you use as 'proof' attributes the quote to Imam Khomeini, not Ahmadinejad.

3. Here's Juan Cole's take on the translation of Ahmadinejad's speech.

The phrase he then used as I read it is "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."

Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope-- that the occupation of Jerusalem was no more a continued inevitability than had been the hegemony of the Shah's government.
4. So in answer to your question Charles, easily.

5. Charles Johnson calls Juan Cole malevolent. Bonus points for projection.

42 comments:

Anti-Idiots said...

Maybe you are a dork or something stupid, regardless of charles, you ignore the main news article that Charles used from the MSM which talks about Iran support and encouragement for assignations of Israeli officials. Khomaini is not just a spiritual leader of Iran, his speeches are guidelines for the Mullahs, they don't dare to cross his guidelines, he is simply like their Messiah. by the way, mahv means vanish which means wipe out.

let me remind you when the pope quoted a quote, in the Islamic world including Iran expressed outrage, they hold him responsible for the quote, so Ahmedinejad should be responsible for his quotes too.

I watched Iranian media, I'm very close to the Iranian culture, and I speak,read and write Arabic and understands little Farsi,

For example Mahv is taken from Arabic Mahw .

Safheh is taken from Arabic Safheh means pages.

So whether you say wipe out from pages of time or wipe out of the map or wipe out from the earth. all means same, threat for destruction. Iran does not recognize Israel, Iran arms Hamas, created and arms Hizbullah, Iran preach destuction of Israel and work on it.

So if Charles is idiot, you're double idiot for defending Ahmedinejad, but maybe you are a communist or Islamist.

Maybe you can try to open blog inside Iran and write against the regime to see how long you last in the country you're defending idiot.

M.J. said...

1.Maybe you are a dork or something stupid, regardless of charles, you ignore the main news article that Charles used from the MSM which talks about Iran support and encouragement for assignations of Israeli officials. Khomaini is not just a spiritual leader of Iran, his speeches are guidelines for the Mullahs, they don't dare to cross his guidelines, he is simply like their Messiah. by the way, mahv means vanish which means wipe out.

Ignoring the ad hominem, the point of the article was not the discussion of the MSM article but Charles' attack on Juan Cole's translation skills. So the rest of your paragraph is irrelevent to the current discussion.

2. let me remind you when the pope quoted a quote, in the Islamic world including Iran expressed outrage, they hold him responsible for the quote, so Ahmedinejad should be responsible for his quotes too.

The pope did indeed quote somebody and was held responsible, so shoud Ahmedinijad. What shouldn't happen is certain media repeating a misquote and mistranslation. This would apply to the Pope if he'd been mistranslated.

3. I watched Iranian media, I'm very close to the Iranian culture, and I speak,read and write Arabic and understands little Farsi,

For example Mahv is taken from Arabic Mahw .

Safheh is taken from Arabic Safheh means pages.


Isn't that basically what Juan Cole said? Anyway going back to your earlier statement that 'vanish' means 'wipe out'...that's a bit of a stretch even to someone with a basic knowledge of Farsi. If the 'proof' consists of a couple of posters which quote someone else and not Ahmedinijad then you're really getting desperate. The facts are as follows: Ahmedinijad didn't say the words...

(a) Israel
(b) Wipe Out
(c) Map

..which makes me suspicious. Especially as a qualified Arabic/Farsi translator like Prof. Cole offers his opinion.

4. So whether you say wipe out from pages of time or wipe out of the map or wipe out from the earth. all means same, threat for destruction. Iran does not recognize Israel, Iran arms Hamas, created and arms Hizbullah, Iran preach destuction of Israel and work on it.

So no matter what is accurate and true it doesn't matter? Nice to see you hold honesty and accuracy so highly.

5. So if Charles is idiot, you're double idiot for defending Ahmedinejad, but maybe you are a communist or Islamist.

Logic of the playground. We are not defending Ahmedinijad or Iran. We are merely pointing out that he has been mistranslated. Something that you yourself have identified. But hey, what's a troll to do without throwing the 'communist' or 'Islamist' around when someone points out you may be wrong.

6. Maybe you can try to open blog inside Iran and write against the regime to see how long you last in the country you're defending idiot.

Again, we're not defending Iran and we're very aware of human rights abuses within that country. You're building a strawman argument and a very bad one at that.

Anonymous said...

I'll admit I can't read Farsi and only know a little Arabic, but let's face it, Juan Cole is known for his bias -- arguably as hard to the left as CJ is to the right. Let's suppose for the sake of argument that "Israel will eventually vanish from the pages of history" is an accurate translation. How can one possibly maintain that it is a neutral, even "hopeful" statement when it appears on a poster with bull's eyes on the heads of Israelis?

It's sad how your obsessive hatred of CJ blinds you to obvious facts. Nations with an agenda routinely speak of "what is inevitable" to rationalize what they intend to do for their own ends. Did not the Romans claim that Fate demanded they impose Roman governance upon the world? Did not the US argue that "Manifest Destiny" justified the conquest of the North American continent? Wasn't British colonialism an "inevitable" obligation of the "white man's burden?" Wasn't Germany fitted by right to establish a thousand-year reign, and wasn't Japan divinely ordained to control the Pacific?

It is transparent, that even if the quotation really does mean merely that Israel is bound to disappear from history, Iran & Hamas (et al.) feel they have some role to play in helping history along....

M.J. said...

I'll admit I can't read Farsi and only know a little Arabic, but let's face it, Juan Cole is known for his bias -- arguably as hard to the left as CJ is to the right.

That maybe true but only one of them works as a translator of Farsi.

Let's suppose for the sake of argument that "Israel will eventually vanish from the pages of history" is an accurate translation. How can one possibly maintain that it is a neutral, even "hopeful" statement when it appears on a poster with bull's eyes on the heads of Israelis?

Because that translation wasn't on the poster you mentioned and if it was then it would, according to the Prof. be out of context.

It's sad how your obsessive hatred of CJ blinds you to obvious facts

There is no obsession or hatred. I disagree with Charles Johnson's politics and methods and have every right to critique him and his website. PS the obvious facts here are that Ahmedinijad was misquoted, Charles attacks Juan Cole for pointing that out despite not speaking or reading Farsi and the weight of evidence that points out that the translation was wrong.

Nations with an agenda routinely speak of "what is inevitable" to rationalize what they intend to do for their own ends. Did not the Romans claim that Fate demanded they impose Roman governance upon the world? Did not the US argue that "Manifest Destiny" justified the conquest of the North American continent? Wasn't British colonialism an "inevitable" obligation of the "white man's burden?" Wasn't Germany fitted by right to establish a thousand-year reign, and wasn't Japan divinely ordained to control the Pacific?

...that has nothing to do with Charles Johnson's attack on Juan Cole. Keep on topic. Translations and right wing smear jobs.

It is transparent, that even if the quotation really does mean merely that Israel is bound to disappear from history, Iran & Hamas (et al.) feel they have some role to play in helping history along....

Maybe they do, however using a mistranslated quote and then attacking the prof. who points it out has nothing to do with that. Feel free to intepret what you want to, knock yourself out.....but expect people to point out when your wrong and, as in CJ's case, expect people to critique you when your repeatedly do it.

Anonymous said...

Because that translation wasn't on the poster you mentioned and if it was then it would, according to the Prof. be out of context.

*IF* Prof. Cole is correct. Let's keep a few things in mind. Juan Cole is not the only translator of Farsi in the world, and he is not a native speaker of the language. The controversy over the "true meaning" of the quote began when JC contested the translation given in the NYT by Nazila Fathi in their Teheran Bureau (I believe she actually is Iranian).

Second, the people who made the poster certainly thought the quotation applied to their cause. If they are "taking it out of context," funny how their "mistaken context" matches that of the NYT Bureau in Teheran, which stands on the opposite aisle ideologically.

That's a lot of Iranians who appear not to know their own language too well, isn't it? I'm a trained linguist myself, and know the sort of mischief that results when someone argues on a "literal translation." There are times when even extremely skilled translators make mistakes or miss subtleties that a lifelong native speaker would recognize. You shouldn't put all your eggs into one basket named Cole.

And Cole has made it manifest that he wants to minimize any possibility of a war between Iran and USA. Naturally, I agree and sympathize with him on that point, but I have to ask whether his intentions haven't misled him into promoting a "translation" which he thought would avoid adding fuel to a very deadly fire. A noble intention should not excuse inaccuracy in scholarship.

M.J. said...

IF* Prof. Cole is correct. Let's keep a few things in mind. Juan Cole is not the only translator of Farsi in the world, and he is not a native speaker of the language. The controversy over the "true meaning" of the quote began when JC contested the translation given in the NYT by Nazila Fathi in their Teheran Bureau (I believe she actually is Iranian).

Juan Cole isn't Iranian. He can speak Farsi however and he works as a translator. The point of the post was to highlight Charles Johnson's attack on him. Last time I checked Johnson is neither an Iranian, a translator of Farsi or an academic with years of experience and study of the region, it's people and languages.

Second, the people who made the poster certainly thought the quotation applied to their cause. If they are "taking it out of context," funny how their "mistaken context" matches that of the NYT Bureau in Teheran, which stands on the opposite aisle ideologically.

The original question was a 'what if'. No matter what the context that the banner makers or anyone else read into his words the translation spread by the western media was flawed.

That's a lot of Iranians who appear not to know their own language too well, isn't it? I'm a trained linguist myself, and know the sort of mischief that results when someone argues on a "literal translation." There are times when even extremely skilled translators make mistakes or miss subtleties that a lifelong native speaker would recognize. You shouldn't put all your eggs into one basket named Cole.

I'm not actually. I've actually done my homework on this and it is quite clear that Ahmedinijad did not say 'wipe Israel off the map'. If you want to argue he did then I suggest you explain why the words 'Israel', 'wipe off' and 'Map' weren't in it. If you're going to argue what he said was similar then fair enough but then it's an argument about Ahemdinijad's words as translated by Juan Cole and others rather than the wingnutosphere.

As for the 'Iranians not knowing their own language', do we have to go down the road of listing mis-attributed quotes in the English language?

And Cole has made it manifest that he wants to minimize any possibility of a war between Iran and USA. Naturally, I agree and sympathize with him on that point, but I have to ask whether his intentions haven't misled him into promoting a "translation" which he thought would avoid adding fuel to a very deadly fire. A noble intention should not excuse inaccuracy in scholarship.

So you're accusing Juan Cole of lying to avoid war?

Listen this is my last response to this thread, I'll leave everyone with one last question.

Did Ahmedinijad say...

Israel must be wiped off the map

or did he say

The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).

Anti-Idiots said...

So M.J you still can't see the irony in your defense of Juan Cole and Ahmedinejad, you are making Cole like he is God, there are many Farsi speakers in the world and translators and native Iranians. why don't you believe in Iranians who are native farsi speakers? how about Arabs like me who I understand some farsi because some Farsi words are actually Arabic. Ask your minion the Sphinx what does Mahw which is Mahv means?

But forget all that, and notice the irony in your post

you quoted Cole saying :

Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope


Aha, so it is saying of Khomaini? then earlier in the quote Cole claims:

The phrase he then used as I read it is "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."

Look at the Iranian poster, they used same Khomaini quote and they translated in English to Cole version , but to wipe off the map version.. so who you gonna believe??? Cole or the Iranians?

M.J. admits you have been so idiot on this one, and show courage by admitting you are wrong, don't just act like what you accuse charles of : Arrogance.

M.J. said...

OK this really is my last post on the subject, the last post really took the biscuit.

So M.J you still can't see the irony in your defense of Juan Cole and Ahmedinejad, you are making Cole like he is God, there are many Farsi speakers in the world and translators and native Iranians.

Where do I start? Where did I make Cole out to be god exactly? There are many Farsi speakers in the world that's true and many translators and guess what? Quite a lot of them have said that the exactly wording that Ahmedinijad used wasn't 'wipe Israel off the map'. Who are we to believe? That's your business. I'd take the word of Cole and others above the NYT and the wingnutosphere.

why don't you believe in Iranians who are native farsi speakers? how about Arabs like me who I understand some farsi because some Farsi words are actually Arabic. Ask your minion the Sphinx what does Mahw which is Mahv means?

Your working on the assumption that I haven't asked Farsi speakers and others. You may understand some Farsi but the people I have consulted are actually fluent. The exact words of Ahmedinijad speech where translated incorrectly. Where is the word 'map'? Where's is the word 'Israel'?

But forget all that, and notice the irony in your post

you quoted Cole saying :

Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope


Aha, so it is saying of Khomaini?


Aha? Have you read the main post above? That's what I stated from the outset.

then earlier in the quote Cole claims:

The phrase he then used as I read it is "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."

Look at the Iranian poster, they used same Khomaini quote and they translated in English to Cole version , but to wipe off the map version.. so who you gonna believe??? Cole or the Iranians?


Why do you automatically think that some random poster has the right translation? The facts are that Ahmedinijad didn't use those words, if the poster maker in question takes the western 'translation' as spread by the NYT as what was Khomeini said as well then the question of competency should be aimed at the poster maker, not Cole and not all Farsi speakers as a whole.

M.J. admits you have been so idiot on this one, and show courage by admitting you are wrong, don't just act like what you accuse charles of : Arrogance.

How have I been an idiot? I'm merely pointing out that Charles Johnson claiming that Juan Cole has mistransalted something while he himself cannot speak or read Farsi is a tad hypocritical. Especially considering the weight of evidence to prove that he didn't use those exact words, that he was quoting a term by Khomeini and that in the desperation to prove otherwise people like Johnson have seized on posters rather than the translation and text itself.

Again I ask the question.

Did Ahemdinijad say 'wipe Israel off the map'?

It's a simple yes or no answer.

The Sphinx said...

"So M.J you still can't see the irony in your defense of Juan Cole and Ahmedinejad, you are making Cole like he is God, there are many Farsi speakers in the world and translators and native Iranians. why don't you believe in Iranians who are native farsi speakers? "

Here's an Iranian native Farsi speaker for you that confirms exactly what Cole has said:

Wiped off the map - The rumor of the century

"how about Arabs like me who I understand some farsi because some Farsi words are actually Arabic. Ask your minion the Sphinx what does Mahw which is Mahv means?"

You'd be happy to know that the similarity between Farsi and Arabic is about just as big as the similarity between German and Arabic. After all, some German words are of Arabic origin (Zucker, Tariff, and many others). But apart from sharing the same alphabet, Arabic and Farsi are two completely different classes of languages, and have next to nothing in common. So knowing one doesn't mean knowing the other, and as long as you haven't started actively learning Farsi, you're lying to yourself if you claim you know a little bit of it.

How do I know? I found an online lesson source and started teaching myself Farsi a couple of weeks ago.

"Look at the Iranian poster, they used same Khomaini quote and they translated in English to Cole version , but to wipe off the map version.. so who you gonna believe??? Cole or the Iranians?"

I'd rather believe the guy who looked beyond the sheer propaganda, and actually researched for himself what has been really said, rather than buying the phrase that has been frantically stuffed down everybody's throats. And in finding a native Farsi-speaker who has confirmed what Cole has said, the last remnant of your arguments are being destroyed. Congratulations.

Anti-Idiots said...

"Why do you automatically think that some random poster has the right translation? The facts are that Ahmedinijad didn't use those words, if the poster maker in question takes the western 'translation' as spread by the NYT as what was Khomeini said as well then the question of competency should be aimed at the poster maker, not Cole and not all Farsi speakers as a whole."



hahaha, The poster more likely printed by the Iranian Government. Iran is a dictator country where free speech is restricted and posters, demonstrations and banners all have to pass the government nod. So if Iranians misquote Ahmedinejad, why we should believe Cole?


You asked where is word "Israel" look it over there in the poster, I can see it in Farsi, and in English.

Yes there is no word map, there is "pages of time" big deal! but mahv is same as Mahw same as wipe off. and even Iranians agree. Cole disagree, how about Cole go to Iran and start teaching Iranians their language??


Also look at this farsi to english dictionary, this is automatic dictionary, so you don't think he is in conspiracy with bushhitler?

روزكار = time,days;age;fortune;world

which is the controversial word for map, so even the dictionary list it as world, and you know that world is actual meaning of saying erase from map or wipe off from map , right? You don't think that BushHitler claims Ahmedinejad wanted to erase Israel from printed map , right?

Now the dictionary is wrong,
Iranians wrong,
Farsi natives wrong,
Arabic speakers who understand some farsi because Farsi borrows from Arabic wrong,
Warmongers wrong,
NYT, wrong,
Liberals, wrong,

Only the Cole and some of your minions.

And be more assured I never saw dispute on Arabic forums about Ahmedinejad quote, it is very accepted , because they think it is correct quote, even Arabic wikipedia they brag about it.

like we don't know that Hizbullah and Hamas backed by Iran and sworn on to destroy Israel and that Iran has brigade trained to destroy Israel and called Al-Quds Brigade, and they don't have radio stations broadcast to Palestine to encourage violence, and they never renounced the peace process, and they never called for "martyr" attacks on Israeli civilians and never kicked out the Israeli embassy and pulled out their recognition of Israel which was made before Iran mullahs revolution. and more

But let's argue whether it is pages of time or map or the world.

Carter USM said...

"You asked where is word "Israel" look it over there in the poster, I can see it in Farsi, and in English."

Actually MJ asked where Israel was in Ahmadinijad's quote not the poster. He didn't actually say 'Israel' so to translate it as such immediately tells me that the translation was flawed.

I don't speak Farsi but even I can see that 'Israel' wasn't mentioned by name. Which does suggest that 'Israel be wiped off the map' isn't a direct quote and shouldn't be taken as one.

PS the rest of your post reads like your mentally feeble. I'm amazed MJ's bothered to discuss it with you.

Anti-Idiots said...

"Actually MJ asked where Israel was in Ahmadinijad's quote not the poster. He didn't actually say 'Israel' so to translate it as such immediately tells me that the translation was flawed."

Dumb, MJ and Cole claiming Ahmedinejad quoted Khomaini, and Khomaini quote is in the IRANIAN poster. how dump you can be not to figure it out. next time you might claim Ahmedinejad was talking about new chicken soup recipe.

Since you cannot get that, I understand why you didn't get the rest of my earlier post. or maybe you suffer from autism and cannot understand references? but I would be surprised because autistics are smart.

hkzvkhua said...

Holy crap, MJ basically proved, indisputably, that Charles Johnson is full of shit - the photo alone proves he's a twat - and IT JUST DOES NOT PENETRATE THE LIZARDS' MINDS. They just decide that MJ is wrong because, well, he must be. It is genuinely terrifying.

Carter USM said...

Dumb, MJ and Cole claiming Ahmedinejad quoted Khomaini, and Khomaini quote is in the IRANIAN poster.

Jeebus, you're really not getting it are you?

The poster uses the language that was promoted by western media, quite why the Iranians used it is another issue. The fact is that Ahmedinijad's quoting of Khomeini's term didn't include the term 'wipe Israel off the map'. Full stop. Juan Cole's translation stands as far more accurate than 'wipe Israel off the map', anyone who can read can work that out, no matter what source you go to. The facts that the words are different is key....if they're different it's not a correct translation. This ain't rocket science!

Anonymous said...

Sphinx,

I'd rather believe the guy who looked beyond the sheer propaganda, and actually researched for himself what has been really said, rather than buying the phrase that has been frantically stuffed down everybody's throats. And in finding a native Farsi-speaker who has confirmed what Cole has said, the last remnant of your arguments are being destroyed. Congratulations.

Humorous coming from a guy that would be standing beside Mahmoud if he rated...

mdzemaql said...

Shorter Anonymous:

PPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFTTTTTTTTTT

The Sphinx said...

"Humorous coming from a guy that would be standing beside Mahmoud if he rated..."

And this assumption is based upon..?

Red Tulips said...

I find this whole post to be ludicrous.

Why are you defending Ahmadinejad? Iran has openly been funding/arming/training a terror organization, Hizballah, who has a leader with a stated purpose of killing every Jew on the planet. They are funding/arming/training a terror organization that already has contributed to Lebanon being near-Judenrein, and has committed terror against Jews in places as far off as Argentina, with again the goal of wiping the planet clean of Jews.

This nation - Iran - is openly seeking nukes and is openly arming/funding/training terror groups who also have the similar goal of wiping Israel off the planet. (Hamas and Hizballah)

How stupid do you have to be to NOT GET what is going on?

"Wiping from the sands of time" or "wiping off the map" are exactly the same in material effect. Why are you lying and covering up for those who wish to make the planet Judenrein?

You are the most illiberal liberal on the planet. Why do you hate Jews, which you must, as you are defending someone whose goal is to kill every Jew on earth?

You know what, let's assume Jew hatred is suddenly acceptable.

Why do you hate Iranians, who have to live with a tyrant who openly condones killing gays for the 'crime' of being gay, killing women for the 'crime' of being raped, and jailing/torturing/murdering dissidents?

Why do you hate Iranians/Muslims/Bahai/Arab Iranians?

I would like to know the answer to this question, as your hatred deeply offends me.

Dealer said...

Keep taking the meds RT.

Where exactly does the post support Ahmedinijad? It's clearly supporting Juan Cole because of a moronic attack by Charles Johnson.

The rest of your post is hysterical detritus.

The funniest part was when you claim it doesn't matter what he said because he meant something else. Fake but accurate anyone?

RT would be the perfect poster boy/girl for the left wing blogosphere. If ever they have to point and laugh at someone and generally charactarize the right wing as idiotic, hysterical and just plain wacko.....as if by magic RT turns up!

Red Tulips said...

Dealer,

"Wiped from the sands of time" and "wiped off the map" are exactly the same. It is a distinction without difference, and meant to obscure the fact that Iran is looking to annhilate another nation. (which is Juan Cole's goal)

MJ is arguing that Iran is not looking to wipe Israel off the map, he is NOT just 'defending' Juan Cole.

Red Tulips said...

One more thing.

What other "Zionist regime" did Ahmadinejad mean other than Israel?

Is there any other?

Why are you defending an annhilationist?

Tex Taylor said...

RT would be the perfect poster boy/girl for the left wing blogosphere. If ever they have to point and laugh at someone and generally charactarize the right wing as idiotic, hysterical and just plain wacko.....as if by magic RT turns up!

Well, she would be in good company then. When the right needs some comedy, we come here to laugh at the American loathing, military hating loons of LGF Watch.

The Sphinx said...

"Why are you defending Ahmadinejad? Iran has openly been funding/arming/training a terror organization, Hizballah, who has a leader with a stated purpose of killing every Jew on the planet. They are funding/arming/training a terror organization that already has contributed to Lebanon being near-Judenrein, and has committed terror against Jews in places as far off as Argentina, with again the goal of wiping the planet clean of Jews."

In other words, the standard RT introduction that misses the point, has squat to do with the content of the discussion, and contributes accordingly.

This is entirely about your hero Charles Johnson's hypocrisy in claiming that Juan Cole is wrong without any half-arsed point to support it, while Juan Cole has proven to be right in his translation.

And now will you PLEASE. PLEASE stay on topic this time without resorting to your hysteria and accusations that go around eight different corners to try and grant your (lack of) arguments any more validity?
Thank you.

M.J. said...

One last time for the kids in the special class.

This post isn't defending Ahmedinijad, it's highlighting Charles Johnson's hatchet job on Juan Cole despite the prof being correct and unlike Johnson being an actual 'Middle East Expert' rather than a wannabe.

I am 'just' defending Cole. That's what the post says, that's what it's about. To assume that I'm supportive of Ahmedinijad just because I'm highlighting right-wing idiocy....well just proves you're a right-wing idiot to be frank.

No wonder you kids don't get it. You simply don't understand that a mistranslated phrase can't just be brushed off as 'well he meant it'. Charles Johnson has shown that despite evidence, the spin is the most important factor. If you're going to attack a translator for being wrong.....make sure he is wrong....and when it's obvious he's right...don't accuse him of being wrong again.

Anti-Idiots said...

The sphinx:

"while Juan Cole has proven to be right in his translation."

Proven? we submitted to you folks many evidences that he was wrong, is he prophet for you or something?

You the Sphinx either are non-Arab or simply dishonest, which I assume the latter.

Don't you know that Mahv in Farsi is the same Arabic word Mahw and means wipe off? while Juan Cole claims it does not mean wipe off.

For the note, Persians write in Arabic scripts with some additional characters, they pronunce the Arabic "w" as v , so Mahv is actually exactly spelled like the Arabic Mahw. the Sphinx claims he is Egyptian, while Mahw is simple Arabic and means eliminate/wipe off. He is so far dodged the question , why?

Use any decent dictionary in Persian or Arabic, if you only can read and write Arabic alphabet, write exactly the quote that Ahmedinejad said, which is printed on the poster,

and the interesting thing, is the poster chose not Juan Cole translation but rather the wipe off quote.

who is the idiot and doesn't get it? and you guys claim you're not defending Ahmedinejad, assume that Juan Cole was defending a Bush quote, would you defend Juan Cole? huh.

M.J mocks Charles inexperience in middle-east, while he is an inexperienced in middle east too, Charles is counting on his sources, and M.J. counting on Juan Cole and his sources. then M.J. claims Charles is dishonest. you see the irony?

Dealer said...

"Proven? we submitted to you folks many evidences that he was wrong, is he prophet for you or something?"

You've submitted nothing. You've yet to provide a source to back up the exact translation of.

"..wipe Israel off the map"

Whereas I've seem Juan Cole's translation and The Sphinx's link (translated by an Iranian).

Put up or shut up.

If the words Israel, wipe or map don't appear then the translation is flawed. Is Israel mentioned? Nope. Is wiped mentioned? Nope (although you think your rickety knowledge of Farsi because you speak Arabic means it does). Is map mentioned? Nope.

So for a translation so flawed isn't it more probable that the original translation and later translations by the blogosphere are not accurate to what was originally said?

Or are you still going to carry on with this stupidity?

Anonymous said...

American loathing, military hating loons of LGF Watch.

Yes because everyone who disagrees with a Muslim hating, pony-tailed ex-Jazz guitarist hates America and the military.

You sir are a fuckwit.

M.J. said...

M.J mocks Charles inexperience in middle-east, while he is an inexperienced in middle east too

The essential difference is that I'm not claiming to know Farsi better than Prof. Cole or that his translation was incorrect.

Oh, as for my experience of the Middle East, that's your assumption. I have first hand experience and quite some knowledge of the Middle East and its people. I unfortunately don't share Juan Cole's expert knowledge of Farsi and Arabic.

Charles Johnson pontificates and throws mud from a self appointed position of an anti-Jihad blogger. If you put your bigoted ill-informed material out there, expect to have it critiqued and laughed at if it's rubbish.

Anonymous said...

Anti-Idiot:

You said...

Safheh is taken from Arabic Safheh means pages.

So that proves that 'wipe Israel from the map' isn't a direct and accurate translation doesn't it?

Perhaps I'm missing something. If you're going to argue that the original translation was correct you're best not contradicting yourself in your first post.

Red Tulips said...

MJ,

Stop lying.

You don't give even half a crap about "defending Juan Cole's honor." You are not just "defending Juan Cole."

You are arguing he is right.

And he is wrong.

Cole argues that "wiped from the sands of time" and "wiped off the map" are distinctions that matter. They are not.

You are pretending the mullahs of Iran are not looking to kill every Jew on earth (which they are, through their arming/funding/training of Hezbollah), not to mention make the lives of Iranians a living hell.

Why?

Why do you hate Jews and Iranians so much?

Your bigotry is disgusting.

The Sphinx said...

"Proven? we submitted to you folks many evidences that he was wrong, is he prophet for you or something?"

Once for the record: Native Farsi speakers have proven you wrong. You're persistence in denying this is astounding.

"Don't you know that Mahv in Farsi is the same Arabic word Mahw and means wipe off? while Juan Cole claims it does not mean wipe off."

Prove that it means exactly the same, with your profound knowledge of Persian. Can you? I guess you can't.

"For the note, Persians write in Arabic scripts with some additional characters, they pronunce the Arabic "w" as v , so Mahv is actually exactly spelled like the Arabic Mahw. the Sphinx claims he is Egyptian, while Mahw is simple Arabic and means eliminate/wipe off. He is so far dodged the question , why?"

I challenge you -once again- to prove Arash Norouzi - an Iranian by the way - wrong with their translation. You're in no position to claim you know Farsi better than these people.

"And the interesting thing, is the poster chose not Juan Cole translation but rather the wipe off quote."

Yes. Repeat a lie often enough ..

"Who is the idiot and doesn't get it? and you guys claim you're not defending Ahmedinejad, assume that Juan Cole was defending a Bush quote, would you defend Juan Cole? huh."

If Juan Cole was correctly defending a Bush quote, then yes, we would be defending him just as much.

"M.J mocks Charles inexperience in middle-east, while he is an inexperienced in middle east too, Charles is counting on his sources, and M.J. counting on Juan Cole and his sources. then M.J. claims Charles is dishonest. you see the irony?"

Charles Johnson IS dishonest. Read LGF Watch long enough and you will see for yourself. From concealing information to distorting facts, and calling people with a real clue ignorant is nothing short of dishonest.


"You don't give even half a crap about "defending Juan Cole's honor." You are not just "defending Juan Cole."

You are arguing he is right.

And he is wrong."


Prove that he is.

"Cole argues that "wiped from the sands of time" and "wiped off the map" are distinctions that matter. They are not."

The Soviet Union vanished from the pages of time and wasn't wiped off. There is a very significant difference.

"You are pretending the mullahs of Iran are not looking to kill every Jew on earth (which they are, through their arming/funding/training of Hezbollah), not to mention make the lives of Iranians a living hell."

Again, you're conjuring this stuff up out of nothingness, because this discussion hasn't mentioned anything about Iranian politics/mullahs/Jews/Hezbollah/Iranian people until you turned up. You're quite a piece of work, you know that?

The Sphinx said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Red Tulips said...

Sphinx,

Please try your tired B.S. elsewhere.

You actually expect others to think that Ahmadinejad expects Israel to quietly stop being Zionist and become an Islamist theocracy quietly and into the night? Yeah, right.

It is quite clear that "vanished from the pages of time" mean "Israel will no longer be a Zionist state because we will have murdered the Zionists."

The Iranian support for mass murder of Jews worldwide belies this point. Okay, I know a Jewish life is meaningless to someone who supports jihadists, so I will rephrase. The Iranian support for mass murder of MUSLIM CIVILIANS worldwide (such as in Lebanon and Iraq, not to mention Iran), bely this point.

It is expected you don't care about Jews. But for the love of G-d, stop turning a blind eye when your fellow Muslim is being killed. It deeply repulses me.

The bottom line: stop lying. We ain't buying it.

Carter USM said...

RT:

Please try your tired B.S. elsewhere.

You're the guest, Sphinx as one of the contributors is a host.

So if anyone should try 'tired BS' elsewhere it's you. Don't you have any Cheeto's to finish off?

The Sphinx said...

RT, if anything is "tired BS" that should be taken elsewhere, it's your preposterous claims that I consider Jewish life to be worthless. You might as well write it down on paper, roll it up and smoke it.

And you haven't proven Charles Johnson to be any more right and Juan Cole to be any more wrong regarding the translation. Go ahead and ramble on.

stvip said...

Once again, LGFWatch makes LGF look good.

I'm not going to indulge in splitting hears over the exact translation of Ahmedinejad's phrase (generally, as someone who does freelance translation for extra income, I find the insistence on a direct literal translation, rather than using a comparable native idiom with the same meaning to be silly; the official Iranian translation, that is, by the Iranian presidential and press agnecies was "wipe off", by the way). It's ridiculous to focus so much on this single phrase while there's the whole corpus of Iran's leaders' words and actions.

The salient point of disgust with this post is the attempt to spin Adhmedinejad's speech as something positive (giving hope to the Palestinians, yes?).


Lex - yes, I remember your contrarian support on LGF. Amusing times, even if dealing with quintessentially non-amusing subjects. Perhaps I'll go into more detail about that later. I do wish you'd reconsider your current position of blind trust in people like The Sphinxter - seems to me like you're overcompensating for past grievances.

stvip said...

Argh. I'd love to pretend I was making a clever pun, but I meant:
Splitting "hairs".

You know what? Let's just assume all my typing or spelling mistakes are actually erudite puns you just haven't understood.

Red Tulips said...

Sphinx,

Keep saying you are not antisemitic while claiming Israel, the one flowering democracy in the Mideast where Muslims and Jews have equal rights, is somehow this evil/villainous "terror state."

Sorry, not buying it.

You do not care when Muslims mass murder Muslims. Muslims kill Muslims? No big deal! (or worse yet, it is the fault of the Zionists!) You only care when Israelis kill Muslims accidentally, hoping to defend themselves.

This is the essence of antisemitism. If you really were not an antisemite, you would not apply one standard to Israel, and another to the rest of the world.

If you really were not an antisemite, you would care when Muslims die, regardless of who kills them.

If you really were not an antisemite, you would praise Israel as the one nation in the Mideast where Muslims are treated like human beings.

But since you are an antisemite, you do the opposite. You hate Israel as it is the one Jewish state in the world.

The essence of antisemitism, disguised as "anti-zionism."

The sad thing is that in hating Israel, you hate fellow Muslims and excuse/don't care about their mass murder.

The Sphinx said...

"Keep saying you are not antisemitic while claiming Israel, the one flowering democracy in the Mideast where Muslims and Jews have equal rights, is somehow this evil/villainous 'terror state.'"

Yes, the flowering democracy where Arabs are said to pose a "demographic threat", face discrimination, where public services in Arab areas are inferior to those of Israeli areas, and where there is discrimination even against Sephardic and Yemenite Jews (aka. Jews of darker skin colour), which is nothing short of racism.

If it's anti-Semitic to point out this injustice, that goes against Jewish principles, then yes, I might as well be anti-Semitic (heh..)

"You do not care when Muslims mass murder Muslims. Muslims kill Muslims? No big deal! (or worse yet, it is the fault of the Zionists!) You only care when Israelis kill Muslims accidentally, hoping to defend themselves."

Rubbish. Muslim on Muslim violence is despicable, and if you think I tolerate that, then you're flat-out lying.

"This is the essence of antisemitism. If you really were not an antisemite, you would not apply one standard to Israel, and another to the rest of the world."

If the Federal States of Micronesia were engaging in this kind of rubbish, I wouldn't put them to any different standard.

"If you really were not an antisemite, you would care when Muslims die, regardless of who kills them."

Again, you're lying to yourself if you think I don't.

"If you really were not an antisemite, you would praise Israel as the one nation in the Mideast where Muslims are treated like human beings."

See above.

"But since you are an antisemite, you do the opposite. You hate Israel as it is the one Jewish state in the world."

Being the one Jewish state in the world is not a wildcard for its government to do whatever it wants. In fact, that is a filthy double standard, because it means a Jewish nation can do what other nations cannot and get away with it.

The essence of antisemitism, disguised as "anti-zionism."

Zionism is not Semitism, Semitism is not Judaism, Judaism is not Zionism, and vice versa in all cases. Criticism of unjust politics of a SECULAR, NATIONALIST, and MAN-MADE ideology has nothing in common with hate of a RELIGION and its adherents.

You're just a hysterical fanatic who can't see beyond a microscopic field of view.

"The sad thing is that in hating Israel, you hate fellow Muslims and excuse/don't care about their mass murder."

Liar. Murder is despicable, no matter committed by whom, against whom, for whichever reason. So when the I"D"F murders Arab civilians, it should be put to the same standard as all other murderers. No bogus accusations of Anti-semitism will change this fact.

And in fact, as long as you don't care about Jew-on-Jew discrimination in Israel, then you're an ANTISEMITE!!!1!1one1!

Red Tulips said...

Sphinx,

You have the audacity to speak of discrimination against Yemenites when you come from a culture that actively discriminates against Africans and those with darker skin colors?

Laughable!

I have openly decried the way Yemenites were treated in Israel, however, you ignore the fact that Yemeni/Iraqi/Ethiopian Jews were air lifted to safety by the IDF. Meanwhile, 'Palestinians' are not even allowed citizenship three generations out in nations such as Syria and Saudi Arabia. Do you really want to compare the treatment of 'Palestinians' in Saudi Arabia (or anywhere in the Mideast outside of Israel), with that of Ethiopian Jews in Israel? Is that a comparison you want to make?

Do I see you decrying the 'Palestinian' treatment in the Mideast? Of course not!

Are there Ethiopian/Yemeni/Iraqi Jews living in concentration camps in Israel? NO. They live as regular citizens of Israel. In contradistinction, you find 'Palestinians' living in concentration camps in, for instance, Lebanon. Do you care about this? No. When it is Muslim-on-Muslim discrimination, you don't care a whit and/or claim it is the evil JOOOZ behind it.

In Yemen, tens of thousands of civilians died when Egypt waged war against the government. Do you cry for the Yemeni civilians? Of course not. When one 'Palestinian' terrorist is killed by the IDF you cry and cry and wail and moan. Why the double standard? Because it is the evil JOOOZ doing the killing!

In Jordan, at least 5,000 'Palestinians' were killed by the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan. DO you cry about this? Many of these people were civilians. Do you now say Jordan is evil? Of course not! Because you only care about the evil JOOOZ of the IDF.

In Saudi Arabia, they call African Muslims the Arabic word for slave. Do you care? No. Because it is a Muslim-on-Muslim state doing it, not a Jewish state, so who gives a crap!

In Iran, Arab Iranians face heavy discrimination and horrible treatment. Gays have been killed for being gay, and women killed for the crime of being raped. Do you care? No, Iran is this wonderful state! Why? Muslim-on-Muslim, doesn't matter! But if a Jew so much as looks at a Muslim the wrong way, EVIL JOOZ!

In Syria, the town of Hama was literally wiped off the map when Assad levelled it to the ground and killed at least 10,000 Muslims. Do you care? No! Muslim-on-Muslim, so it is irrelevant!

More Muslims have been killed by fellow Muslims than than been killed by the IDF. But to you, this is somehow insignificant compared to the 'evil' of the IDF, which is done simply to defend Israel's very existence.

You claim you care about Muslims, but you really don't. Rather, you use the CLAIM that you 'care' about Muslims as a sword against Israel, the one nation in the Mideast where Muslims have equal rights with Jews and are able to participate in a real democracy.

In short, given you ignore the plight of your fellow Muslims, you are truly the 'Islamophobe,' not me. I care about Ethiopian Jewry and I am excited to see the strides they have made in the decades since they have arrived in Israel, airlifted to safety. I do not see how you care in the slightest about fellow Muslims.

Anonymous said...

I care about Ethiopian Jewry and I am excited to see the strides they have made in the decades since they have arrived in Israel

So in essence you only care about them because they suit you politcally. Other Ethiopians are not on your radar. Racist.

Red Tulips said...

Anon,

HUH? Ethiopians are human, and I care about them as I do the rest of humanity.

Sphinx evidently only selectively 'cares' about humanity.