Little Green Footballs

Tuesday, January 24, 2006

Lie down with dogs

Yesterday a blogger wrote:

[A]n entire civil religion and cult has been organised around the Holocaust.

Must be either (a) a pro-Iranian Islamo-fascist nutbag or (b) a typical Jooooo-hating European Marxo-Islamic dhimwit, right?

Nope. That nugget of numskullery was provided by the author of Snouck Hurgronje, a Dutch blog that has, on at least one occasion, been featured at Pajamas Media -- and not in the "Opinion" category, either.

Snouck's main preoccupations are immigrant-bashing and defending the British National Party, which even The Sun describes as a "vile racist party," and which is now busily re-branding itself as a mainstream conservative organization.

Do "Pajamas Media in Los Angeles" (or Sydney or Barcelona) realize that they've featured material written by a white supremacist with neo-Fascist sympathies? Or do they just not care -- as long as what they republish bashes either Islam, or European liberalism, or -- preferably -- both?

Lie down with dogs, get fleas.

26 comments:

Snouck said...

My dear friends of LGF Watch.

I am thrilled to see that my humble blog has caught the attention of your esteemed and very noble publication. Such a pity that I, a lowly and despised, yeah even mangy dog, have earned your displeasure and censure.

Perhaps your readers will be interested that the immigrants that you protect so lovingly attack teachers in Dutch schools that attempt to teach children about the Holocaust. That they attack and rip wreaths that are left during Holocaust remembrance ceremonies on May the fourth and that this causes an outcry amongst Jews and Dutchies alike?

My maternal grandfather was a inmate and "Todeskandidat" of several Nazi camps, amongst them Buchenwald. So Snouck is aware of what happened during that time of tragedy not just as something force fed by Leftist educational and media control, but also as a part of family lore.

However Snouck rejects the use of the Holocaust as a propaganda tool to deny the rights of ethnic Dutch or any other nation in the world.

You may well call me a "Nazi" for that. Demonisation is so useful for a propagandist! Not for nothing the definition of "Nazi" has become "someone who has won an argument with a Leftist".

Mangy, flea bitten regards from Amsterdam, the city of Theo van Gogh.

Snouck

Winston Smith said...

I'm curious about some remarks you made on your blog.

You said, regarding a friend who received a large bill for scratching a Moroccan's car with his bike, "Thing is, he lives in Amsterdam-West, in Mokrostan. It is 80 percent Turkish - Morroccan."

According to os.amsterdam.nl, Bos en Lommer is 39% "Turkish-Moroccan." The figures for other "Amsterdam-West" areas (stadsdelen) are: Slotervaart (where those infamouse "riots" took place) 24%, De Baarsjes 21%, Westerpark 12%, Oud-West 8%, Osdorp 24%, Geuzenveld-Slotermeer 38%.

Those figures represent the total for the "ethnic groups" in question, not the total numbers of first-generation immigrants.

So where did you get your 80% figure?

MJ said...

However Snouck rejects the use of the Holocaust as a propaganda tool to deny the rights of ethnic Dutch or any other nation in the world.

So Snouck is aware of what happened during that time of tragedy not just as something force fed by Leftist educational and media control, but also as a part of family lore.

I love the way you address yourself in the third person. Like the wrestler 'the rock'. Makes you sound far more interesting than you are.

Thanks for following the line of many right-wingers who happily flirt with the likes of the BNP and blaming the Jews of using the Holocaust to victimise 'ethnic Dutch'. You can prattle on about Islam and it's attitudes towards the Holocaust and Jews as much as you like, but if you happily match their intolerance and bigotry it's a tad hypocritical. Oh and extra points for Leftist educational and Media control....another Jewish conspiracy for you to chew over.

"Nazi" is someone who happily believes that Jews are using the Holocaust to oppress ethnic white majorities and use lies like it to further their anti-immigration, racist agenda. That person can be described as a Nazi. That person can be described as an anti-Semite. That person is you.

Winston Smith said...

Getting back to your original comment, snouck:

If I'm not mistaken, your main point is roughly: Hitler was a white nationalist, but people shouldn't assume all white nationalists are Nazis.

OK then:

Mohammed Bouyeri is a Muslim, but people shouldn't assume all Muslims are murderous thugs.

Yet you seem to buy into a common belief, which is based on a logical fallacy: most terrorists and criminals are Muslim, therefore all Muslims are terrorists and criminals.

As far as your Holocaust comments are concerned, we're just curious to see whether they will be repudiated by the "respectable" right-wing élite as represented by the Pajamas punditocracy, or whether they will simply overlook them and continue to publish your dispatches from Holland -- because "Holocaust relativism" is apparently only noteworthy when it's perpetrated by someone on the Left. Or by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

And finally, if you'd like to experience some honest, open, free-wheeling, civilized debate (as opposed to what you seem to think takes place on most leftie sites like this one), I suggest you post your comments, verbatim, at Little Green Footballs.

Snouck said...

Colin Winston:
"Thanks for following the line of many right-wingers who happily flirt with the likes of the BNP and blaming the Jews of using the Holocaust to victimise 'ethnic Dutch'. You can prattle on about Islam and it's attitudes towards the Holocaust and Jews as much as you like, but if you happily match their intolerance and bigotry it's a tad hypocritical. Oh and extra points for Leftist educational and Media control....another Jewish conspiracy for you to chew over.

"Nazi" is someone who happily believes that Jews are using the Holocaust to oppress ethnic white majorities and use lies like it to further their anti-immigration, racist agenda. That person can be described as a Nazi. That person can be described as an anti-Semite. That person is you. "

Snouck:
I do not believe in a Jewish conspiracy regarding the Holocaust cult. It is mainly a emotional sledgehammer and propaganda tool used by Western elites, mainly but not exclusively on the Left. It is only natural and fitting that Jews want to commemorate their war dead.

The Holocaust is used to criminalise opposition to mass immigration to Western countries. I see that you again try to tar me with the Nazi brush. It leaves me cold. Inflation has made the Nazi currency lose its value.

Winston Smith said...
Getting back to your original comment, snouck:

Mohammed Bouyeri is a Muslim, but people shouldn't assume all Muslims are murderous thugs.

Snouck:
you are right. I am not assuming all Muslims are murdering thugs. I am assuming that 1-2 percent may use violent means to limit freedom of speech in my society. As we have in fact seen.

You pointed out that I provide no source for my 80 percent figure of Turks and Morroccans in Bos and Lommer and you provide a source with a 39 percent figure.

The 39 percent figure is too low. I come often to Bos and Lommer. My 80 percent figure is a guestimate based on looking around and reading the streets. There are many other groups apart from Turks and Morroccans in that area so my 80 percent figure is probably too high. My apologies, I was shooting from the hip.

Snouck
Your friendly Nazi

Winston Smith said...

Bos en Lommer population statistics as of 1/1/05.

As you can see, the total white population (Dutch + "industrialized countries") is 16309 out of a total of 30989, which makes the neighborhood 53% white. The total Turkish & Moroccan population is 12112. The remainding population is from Suriname, the Antilles, and other "non-industrialized" countries.

"Shooting from the hip" is all well and good, but don't be too surprised if you are "fact-checked" once in a while.

Wiag said...

Winston, it would be nice that if you count to show someone else's mistake, Snouck's mistake in this case, you would count fair.

10300 = Dutch
1609 = industrialised countries
---------
11909 out of 30989 is roughly 39 percent. That's your white population. So 61 percent has that healthy tan if we are assuming what you are assuming.

Adding a zero can make a big difference. Possibly it's easy to make one, if you're not living in the streets where the reality gives you the rough indication. If you do live there, please do look around.

Winston Smith said...

Thanks for the correction.

This still doesn't add up to an 80% "Turkish-Moroccan" population though. I doubt whether the 2145 Surinamers, as well as the Antilleans and others from 'non-industrialized countries' will appreciate being lumped into that category.

Speaking of non-T&M immigrants, where does someone like Ayaan Hirsi Ali fit into the white-nationalist worldview? She has impeccable anti-Muslim credentials, but she's also African.

If someone like Hirsi Ali -- a refugee from a dangerous Islamic theocracy who wanted to reject her nationality and her religion -- were to step off a plane from Somalia tomorrow, would you let her in?

Wiag said...

@Winston:
Well the stance one takes towards foreigners will probably depend on a lot of different things, the way foreigners behave as a group is one of them. Of course ones own world view is another.

I have yet to hear the first Dutch person since 17 years complain to me about Chinese people in the Netherlands. The complaint was about the fact that every new years day very early in the morning the Chinese in a small village in Twente called Wierden would light hundreds of kilos of fireworks and it would be loud. Living next to these Chinese one wouldn't get much sleep the first of January.

I think the reason I hardly ever hear complaints about Chinese is because they hardly bother anyone, we like to eat their food and generally speaking they are hardworking and keep to themselves. The second generation already spoke crystal clear dutch and at the highschool where I went in the Eastern part of The Netherlands they would be better at speaking the local dialect than I was, being born Dutch in another part of the country.

The culture of the Chinese is very much different from the Dutch, but a few key elements are the same. It makes them for dutch people easier to accept and live with.

I think that if Ayaan would decent some flight stairs comming from Somalia just now she wouldn't get asylum here. That probably would have been a loss, but that is true for a lot of Moroccans and Turkish people too. This fact just doesn't neccesarily mean a country should give passports to everyone who wants to have another one. Depending on the number of foreigners within it's border (why is it a border?) it will surely change it's identity and culture and fast too.

I think a nationalist would like to keep the culture that has grown over hundreds and even thousands of years. I would say that is even the right of a person, and should be possible without being called a Nazi or a dog.

I give you one further question. The Dutch live next to the Germans but we, Germans and Dutch alike still have and like to have a border between us. Why is that? (I'll tell you beforehand it's not because of WW2...)

Snouck said...

winston Smith:
"If someone like Hirsi Ali -- a refugee from a dangerous Islamic theocracy who wanted to reject her nationality and her religion -- were to step off a plane from Somalia tomorrow, would you let her in? "

Snouck:
No. But, it would not be up to me. It would have to be put up to a vote. And the vote would probably say no. In the areas untouched by immigration it is different of course.

Ayaan is a very impressive lady. I just finished listening to a BBC radio interview with her. She is a Leftist though and her policy on religious (Islamic) education is a threat to our freedom of education. She wants state education for everybody.

Snouck
Your helpful Nazi (tm)

MJ said...

I give you one further question. The Dutch live next to the Germans but we, Germans and Dutch alike still have and like to have a border between us. Why is that?

Germans have the freedom to move to Holland to live and vice versa for decades, the border means nothing.

Wiag said...

@ColinW:
Germans have the freedom to move to Holland to live and vice versa for decades, the border means nothing.

Your statement underwrites my argument: they DON'T move here in great numbers. That must mean something, would'nt you agree?

MJ said...

It means that Germans are pretty happy in their lives and jobs in a democratic and free Germany so wouldn't need to move to another nation. Most immigrants haven't had such breaks.

I personally believe in tighter but fairer immigration in the EU, and I do believe it is a problem. However there's a difference between being concerned and pro-active and being a white supremacist racist a la the BNP and National Front.

Winston Smith said...

"the culture that has grown over hundreds and even thousands of years"

Well, where do you draw the line and say, "everyone whose ancestors moved to the Netherlands after year X is Dutch, and everyone else isn't, and must therefore leave"?

Do you go back to the 1970s (which would eliminate most of the Surinamese), or the 1950 (Turks and Moroccans), or all the way to the 17th century (Huguenots)?

For that matter, what about the Queen? As defined by the Dutch government, she is an "allochtoon." So are two of her granddaughters.

If your timescale for determining who is and isn't Dutch really goes back "thousands of years," then logically the Netherlands, today, should be completely unpopulated, except for the very few descendants of the Belgii (or whoever was living in what is now the Netherlands under the Romans -- which, as you know, was mostly a swamp back then) whose blood is completely uncontaminated by that of any other ethnic group whatsoever.

Winston Smith said...

Sorry. I meant,

"everyone whose ancestors moved to the Netherlands before year X is Dutch..."

Snouck said...

Colin W:
"Germans have the freedom to move to Holland to live and vice versa for decades, the border means nothing."

Snouck:
The border in in their heads and in our heads. It is fashionable to deny that we belong to different nations. But look at what people do and do not listen to the "pia verba".

Wiag said...

@Colin:
I personally believe in tighter but fairer immigration in the EU, and I do believe it is a problem. However there's a difference between being concerned and pro-active and being a white supremacist racist a la the BNP and National Front.

I really cannot fathom on what you decided to call Snouck a white supremacist racist? (What is the meaning of 'white' supremacist? Is it worse than a black supremacist?) And what do you think is altogether wrong with the BNP in the UK, as to make it wrong in the first place to support their ideas? What do you know for a fact about the BNP that makes it a priori wrong to agree with opinions the BNP might have?

The point I wanted to make about Germans versus Dutch is that we are not the same. And because of it, it works better to have a system that is more tailor made to Germans and one that is more tailor made to Dutch people.

A lot of foreigners will without a doubt be much more different. Nothing wrong with that, although after a while the suit might not fit well anymore.

Thinking such things doesn't make you a racist, a supremacist, nor a Nazi.

MJ said...

The BNP are a fascist party. They formed the C18 neo-Nazi paramilitary. They are led by Holocaust deniers, violent racists (convicted), Hitler worshipping idiots...etc etc (and have their fair share of jailbirds, paedophiles, perverts and drug dealers thrown in for good measure)

They have recently tempered their more extremist tendencies to appeal to a greater audience....but they are still the same people only their more idiotic followers believe that. The hardcore that were there at the start are still the same thugs who 'paki bashed' and caused havoc in the 70's and 80's and with the links they have with C18 and the WNP still are causing racially motivated trouble now. They are scum of the earth.

The BNP is a neo-Nazi, white supremacist party. Full stop.

(What is the meaning of 'white' supremacist? Is it worse than a black supremacist?)

Both are destructive ideas. The idea that any 'race' is superior is abhorent. If you can't see what is wrong with that, then I'm not surprised that you have such a difficulty in identifying the BNP for what they really are.

Snouck said...

Colin:
"there's a difference between being concerned and pro-active and being a white supremacist racist a la the BNP and National Front. "

Snouck:
what is the difference? What are the legal consequences for those who take the stance of a WS racist?

The expression of the BNP, CD, Vlaams Blok and such ethnic nationalist viewpoints and political stances have been outlawed. This has denied the people the opportunity to oppose government policy. And the government has denied the people of their rights AT ITS PERIL. There is an upsurge in ethnic nationalism in the West due to the intolerance and the blindness of the political elites.

In fact the vehement intolerance of the Left has been the greatest asset pro-White groups have. They would never have any chance of gaining power if Third World immigration had not gotten so awfully out of hand.

Winston:
"Well, where do you draw the line and say, "everyone whose ancestors moved to the Netherlands after year X is Dutch, and everyone else isn't, and must therefore leave"?

Snouck:
I don't know where the line should be drawn although I have my preferences and idiosyncracies. Any answer I give will imply suffering and be arbitrary to some degree.

I do say: give communities a vote and let them freely decide who is their brother and who is the stranger or enemy. If a Dutchman
has to vote and the vote will imply financial responsibility (because the new citizen may become a drain on the public purse) I expect that very few of those Third Worlders who came here after 1960 will find they have brotherhood with us. Not that they will be surprised. As a White Patriot I can then only rejoice in the nationhood and prudence of my countrymen.

You seem to have a rule driven mind set, Colin. Rules that are administrated by a faceless bureaucracy.

Forget bureaucracy. Forget imposing rules from above. Let the people decide on who and how.

Snouck said...

colin:
"(about racial supremacy)..[is a].. destructive idea. The idea that any 'race' is superior is abhorent. If you can't see what is wrong with that, then I'm not surprised that you have such a difficulty in identifying the BNP for what they really are. "

Snouck:
You forget to ask questions Colin. Why is supremacy so destructive? Why does that idea have such terrible power?

Homo Sapiens has exclusively lived in kinship societies for 98 percent of its time.

Nuclear Cop said...

give communities a vote and let them freely decide who is their brother and who is the stranger or enemy.

How sad it is when "stranger" is synonymous with "enemy".

I admire Snouck's faith in the democratic process, though. It's never failed him so far and led to a left-wing Dutch government or anything, right? And it's not like his neighbours would vote him out, afterall.

Remind me again, who were the last people to attempt mass forced immigration along ethnic lines in Europe?

Snouck said...

nuclear cop:
"Remind me again, who were the last people to attempt mass forced immigration along ethnic lines in Europe?"

Snouck:
The Czech communists were the last one's to carry out ethnic cleansing in Europe. It is known as the infamous Benes degree. Banishing ethnic Germans and Hungarians from Czech and Slovak land after the second word war. And it was not an attempt. But I am sure this is not what you had in mind, nuclear cop? Tarring is such dirty fun!

Snouck
Your nerdy Nazi

jf said...

Sorry I think the last attempt at ethnic cleansing in Europe was in the former Yugoslavia in the 90's.

Your nerdy anti-Fascist
JF

PS

I find it exceptionally funny how people who call themselves 'White Patriots' (notice the capital letters where none are needed) are so upset when somebody calls them a nazi. Were they actually born that stupid? Or is it all the 'blame darkie' arguments they undertake slowly burning away braincells.

PPS

Nice one LGFW. White Supremacist nutjobs on Pajamas Media....as if they didn't have enough problems.

Winston Smith said...

Snouck: in any case, if you're so annoyed that people associate "White Patriotism" with Nazism, why don't you go after the swastika brigade, who give your cause such a bad name?

Wiag said...

JF is not making any argument, so besides this point I am making now, let's ignore him.

Secondly, to me it's strange that calling names and worse is what you 'anti-fascists' or whatever you call yourselves start an argument with. Doesn't help convincing me of your bright ideas, and worsens your positions/arguments.

Why bother with that way of discussing at all. If we all started with namecalling, what's the point in discussing things anyway?

Snouck said...

The Rt. Rev. Colin W sermonizes:
"You can prattle on about Islam and it's attitudes towards the Holocaust and Jews as much as you like, but if you happily match their intolerance and bigotry it's a tad hypocritical. "

Snouck:
Hypocrite-Shypocrite! Has it ever occurred to you that if you throw these Bigots from all sides in one cauldron brewin' and stewin' society becomes bloody explosive?

No, you haven't thought about it, Colin. You were too busy congratulating yourself on you MORAL EXCELLENCE. Too busy to congratulate yourself on not being a Nazi, to see what was going on.

Such an achievement. I am sooooooo impressed. Allow me to grovel at your feet in a most ingratiating manner. I am but dust under your feet, Master.

Snouck
Your sarcastic Nazi