Little Green Footballs

Wednesday, August 03, 2005

Letters to Hirsi Ali

Here's an interesting piece (and I may add one I don't entirely agree with) about the Hirsi Ali controversy in Holland. In it a lot of important details are made clear that right wing bloggers and journalists in the US are happy to ignore.

The Dutch-Muslim Culture War
By Deborah Scroggins
The Nation

27 June 2005 Issue


In the United States, where few people have had the chance to read or see her critiques of Islam, the 35-year-old Hirsi Ali has been almost exclusively portrayed as a champion of free speech and women's rights. In the Netherlands, however, she remains the subject of intense controversy. Well before van Gogh's murder, she had become a major hate figure among Dutch Muslims, who accuse her of stirring up Islamophobia on behalf of a cabal of right-wing politicians and columnists. Since the murder, a surprising number of native-born Dutch intellectuals have come around to the Muslim point of view.

In a series of "Letters to Hirsi Ali" published this spring in the newspaper De Volkskrant, several well-known, mostly male writers charged her with poisoning the political atmosphere with her strident attacks on Islam and the Prophet Mohammed. They argued that by pandering to Dutch prejudices and putting Muslims on the defensive, she contributes to the very Islamic radicalization she claims to want to stop. In a book rushed into print in February, the popular historian Geert Mak went so far as to compare Submission to Joseph Goebbels's infamous Nazi propaganda film The Eternal Jew. He warned that the Netherlands could be on the road to civil war. "When the time comes for us to tell our grandchildren, how will we tell the story of the last months of 2004?" Mak asked breathlessly. "The tone, the new tone that suddenly had taken hold? Where did it all begin?"

The backlash against Hirsi Ali has astonished and disappointed many Dutch feminists, who continue to count themselves among her biggest fans. Margreet Fogteloo, editor of the weekly De Groene Amsterdammer, said flatly that Mak is crazy. "People like him feel guilty because they were closing their eyes for such a long time to what was going on," she said. In what appears to be a Europe-wide pattern, some feminists are aligning themselves with the anti-immigrant right against their former multiculturalist allies on the left. Joining them in this exodus to the right are gay activists, who blame Muslim immigrants for the rising number of attacks on gay couples.

Hirsi Ali's many critics contend that far from being a revolutionary, she brings a message that the West is all too willing to hear. They say that in calling for European governments to protect Muslim women from Muslim men, she and her admirers recycle the same Orientalist tropes that the West has used since colonial times as an excuse to control and subjugate Muslims. "White men saving black women from black men - it's a very old fantasy that is always popular," Annelies Moors, a University of Amsterdam anthropologist who writes about Islamic gender relations, said dryly. "But I don't think male violence against women, a phenomenon known to every society in history, can be explained by a few Koranic verses."

Moors and others don't dispute the existence of the social problems Hirsi Ali identifies. Many Dutch Muslim women do live in segregated "parallel cities" where Islamic social codes are enforced. Muslims make up only 5.5 percent of the Dutch population, but they account for more than half the women in battered women's shelters and more than half of those seeking abortions. Muslim girls have far higher suicide rates than non-Muslim girls. Some Muslim girls, mostly African, are genitally mutilated. But in putting all the blame on Islam, they say, Hirsi Ali ignores the influence of patriarchal custom as well as the work of a generation of Muslim feminists. They point to thinkers like Fatima Mernissi and Amina Wadud, who have shown that Islam's sacred texts can be interpreted in a more female-friendly way. And they say Hirsi Ali avoids mention of the role the West has played and continues to play in assisting the rise of the Islamist movements. "The rightist forces and the radical Islamists feed on each other, and she contributes to that," Moors said.

Karima Belhaj is the director of the largest women's shelter in Amsterdam. She's also one of the organizers of the "Stop the Witchhunt!" campaign against what she sees as anti-Muslim hysteria. On the day we talked, she was despondent. Arsonists had set fire for the second time to an Islamic school in the town of Uden. A few days later a regional police unit warned that the rise of right-wing Dutch youth gangs potentially presents a more dangerous threat to the country than Islamist terrorism. "The rise of Islamism is not the problem," Belhaj said. "The problem is that hatred against Arabs and Muslims is shown in this country without any shame." With her message that Muslim women must give up their faith and their families if they want to be liberated, Hirsi Ali is actually driving women into the arms of the fundamentalists, said Belhaj: "She attacks their values, so they are wearing more and more veils. It frightens me. I'm losing my country. I'm losing my people."

If Belhaj was sad, another "Stop the Witchhunt!" organizer was angry. Like Belhaj, Miriyam Aouragh is a second-generation immigrant of Moroccan background. A self-described peace and women's activist, Aouragh was the first in her family to attend university. She's now studying for a PhD in anthropology. She scoffs at the idea that Hirsi Ali is a champion of oppressed Muslim women. "She's nothing but an Uncle Tom," Aouragh said. "She has never fought for the oppressed. In fact, she's done the opposite. She uses these problems as a cover to attack Islam. She insults me and she makes my life as a feminist ten times harder because she forces me to be associated with anti-Muslim attacks."

Aouragh accuses Hirsi Ali and her political allies of deliberately fostering the hostility that has led to the attacks on Islamic institutions and to police brutality against young Muslim men. "I'm surprised the Arab-Muslim community isn't more angry with her," Aouragh said. "When she talks about Muslims as violent people, and Muslim men as rapists, this is very insulting. She calls the Prophet a pedophile. Theo van Gogh called the Prophet a pimp, a goat-****er. Well, no, we don't accept that."

Although the press has focused on the threats against critics of Islam like Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders, Aouragh says that there have been many more attacks on Dutch Muslims than on non-Muslims. She suspects that what the Dutch really fear is not Islamic fundamentalism but the prospect of having to deal with a new generation of highly educated young Muslims who demand a fair hearing for their values. "We are telling them, 'We have rights, too. You have to change your idea about freedom or face the consequences.'"

Whatever happens to Hirsi Ali, the debate she helped polarize over women and Islam is sure to spread and intensify all over Europe in the next few years. As Ronald Inglehart and Pippa Norris have argued in their book Rising Tide, the true clash of opinions between Islam and the West is not about democracy but sex. Successive World Values Surveys, in which social scientists polled public opinion in more than eighty countries between 1981 and 2001, have shown that people in Muslim countries share broadly the same views on political participation as people in the West. What they disagree strongly about is gender equality and sexual liberalization.


Denmark has been widely criticized for passing a law in 2002 establishing a number of tests for citizens or residents who wish to bring spouses into the country from overseas: Both partners must be at least 24 years old. They must demonstrate that the marriage is voluntary. They must have a certain income and own a residence with at least two rooms. And they must show a stronger connection to Denmark than to any other country. As a result, the number of people from outside the European Union who were allowed to join Danish spouses or other close family members fell from 10,950 in 2001 to 3,835 last year. In November the Netherlands became the first to follow Denmark's example, raising the age to 21 to qualify for family reunion.

When the Danish measure was proposed, Muslim groups opposed it vigorously. But Storhaug quotes immigrant parents who now say the law has released them from family pressures to use their children as "human visas." And she says young Muslims can continue their education without fear of being married off. "It's rubbish to say the Danish policy is racist," she said. "It's the best policy for women in Europe."

47 comments:

geekpuk2 said...

Fascists love her as the useful idiot to use in bashing Muslims.

In reality, I bet they view her as lowly as the other mud people. Her and Michelle Malkin. Mud filth.

Just wait until the Mooooslim problem is solved. We are coming for you next.

Chester said...

geek,

How do you intend to solve the Muslim problem. They have already made a mockery of your intelligence and military and politically polarized the country. As a matter of fact I think it is people like you that need to be dealt with, and then we can move on.

I am sure you think that you are blogging them to death with ROFLs and FOADs, but I have to say if you are the front line this battle will look like ground zero at Hiroshima. Ground zero being you, of course.

Electronic Occupation said...

The Nation supported Stalin, Castro, Arafat, Mao, North Vietnam, and the Sandanistas, so their spin on Ali is not exactly a surprise. They've always been an illiberal leftist tabloid, not a liberal one as that term has always been defined. It's similar to LGF Watch's support of illiberal Hamas against the liberal democracy Israel.

geekpuk2 said...

chester,

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I was chanelling the thoughts of Danish fascists (literally,with red swastika and all) who find common ground with this Hirshi Ali character.

Kinda like pro-Zionist lizards who find common ground with the BNP.

Who needs irony when you have this reality?

dawud al-gharib said...

Look, I'm not a 'Nation'(alist);

I loathe fascism and racism, and personally think Charles Johnson needs a bike accident, or an arranged meeting with (CAIR chief) Ibrahim Hooper in an alleyway. Not that I'm advocating violence ;)

As to Michelle Malkin and Hirsi Ali, Irshad Manji and the rest (whats-his-name, the American [from India] writer who wrote about how American colleges weren't racist, how the Right was right about everything... Dinesh D'Souza, that guy) - calling them 'Uncle Toms' doesn't deflect that there are legitimate sociological criticisms, and that the Right is not *completely* intellectually defunct.

'What's wrong with Kansas?' or Lewis Lapham (Harper's) have put a much better finger on what drives neo-conservative fundamentalism: an impulse to 'nihilistic utopianism' [Lapham] or just the will to believe in the American Dream, in freedom and democracy as absolute values, in Corporate Democracy as the 'End of History' [Fukuyama]...

that I don't care for those theories doesn't mean that they don't motivate people, just as the fact that I don't care for the reductionistic & atavistic interpretations of Shar'iah and misogynistic & repressive political theories that ObL and his 'fellow travellers' take for granted - they obviously matter to those who believe in them.

I'm not a believer in the 'Clash of Civilizations', and while there may be muslims fighting westerners, Islam and I are sitting out this (current) battle, waiting for cooler heads to resurface and wisdom and grace to return to public discourse.

Electronic Occupation said...

LGF Watch-Electric Jihad believes only non-Muslims who criticize Islam are "racist," itself a patently racist doctrine. If a Muslim such as Ali does, it is simply common sense, self-preservation, and standing up against medieval ignorance and barbarity.

Chester said...

LGF Watch-Electric Jihad believes only non-Muslims who criticize Islam are "racist," itself a patently racist doctrine.

Now, we just think LGFers critical of Islam are racist.

Just you.

MJ said...

EO:

Nope. Ali isn't a racist because she doesn't describe Palestinians as vermin, she doesn't make derogatory and bigoted remarks about arabs and she hasn't made any accusations/smears about people just because of their ethnicity. LGF'ers do, that's why they're racist.

It's similar to LGF Watch's support of illiberal Hamas against the liberal democracy Israel.

Where does LGFW support Hamas? It's not similar at all. Look at the piece written above the quoted piece. Oh and just on the off chance you can.....get a life.

Chester said...

I love it when LGFers think they had a point. They finally found someone who they thought shared thier view point and now they get shot out of the sky like ducks.

Poor retards. If you really want to win the WoT, kill yourselves.

Electronic Occupation said...

Here's what Ali said. Sounds about right to me:


The terrorists, and the Shari’a-based societies to which they aspire, have an entirely different philosophy. Humans are born to serve Allah through a series of obligations that descend to the point of absurdity in matters such as how to blow your nose, and with what foot to step into a toilet. Muslims, according to this philosophy, must kill those among them who leave the faith, and are required to be hostile to people of other religions and ways of life. This hostility requires them to murder innocent people and makes no distinction between civilians and the military. In Shari’a societies, women are made subordinate to men. They must be confined to their houses, beaten if found disobedient, forced into marriage and hidden behind the veil. The hands of thieves are cut off and capital punishment is performed in crowded public squares in front of cheering crowds. The terrorists seek to impose this way of life not only on Islamic countries, but, as Blair said, on western societies too.

At the core of this fundamental challenge to the west lies a pre-medieval figure to whom the London terrorists—along with all faithful Muslims in our modern world—look for guidance: Muhammad. All faithful Muslims believe that they must emulate this man, in principle and practical matters, under all circumstances. When trying to understand Islamic terrorism, most politicians and other commentators have avoided the core issue, which is Muhammad’s example. The west, before embarking on a battle of ideas, must attempt to understand this figure, and his presence in the daily lives and homes of faithful Muslims today.

It is apparent on reading the Koran that it demonstrates the means by which Muhammad's values can be imposed. Muhammad himself constructed the House of Islam using mass killing, torture, targeted assassination, lying and the indiscriminate destruction of productive goods. Modern terrorists constantly quote Muhammad’s deeds and edicts to justify their actions and to call on other Muslims to support their cause.

Chester said...

Where does LGFW support Hamas?

According to LGF doctrine #1.1 the minute you feel threatened, imply that either A. the opponent is an antisemite or B. you support terror somehow for disagreeing with anything the government does.

bd, it is the LGF skunk spray defense mechanism, and is usually a good diversion while they run off and link obscure and irrelivant websites (that they accuse MSM of) to support a baseless train of thought.

Chester said...

Here's what Ali said. Sounds about right to me:

bd,

see what I mean?

Electronic Occupation said...

Where does LGF Watch support Hamas? Until a few days ago the site prominently displayed the pro-Hamas propaganda of Electronic Intifada. It made sense to remove that, since it made the agenda of LGF Watch all too obvious to all but the eight hopeless idiotarians who post here.

Winston Smith said...

EO, do you agree with the late Theo van Gogh's statement that all Muslims are "goatfuckers"?

dendragapus obscurus said...

I remember when Powderfinger gleefully announced on LGF that he had not only found a link between Electronic Intifada and LGFW, but they were in fact the same people!!

Charles Johnson posted a personal request for more details.

Whatever happened to that hypothesis of yours Powderfinger?

Dont tell me, you stopped smoking the crack and promptly forgot all about it.

Electronic Occupation said...

No, disagree. However, I do believe thay have a culturally and religiously imposed distortion of sexuality that causes endemic psycho-sexual disturbances, beginning with their denigration of women and girls, which bottoms out the scale in comparison to other cultures.

Electronic Occupation said...

It doesn't matter whether LGF Watch and Electronic Hamas are different people, any more than it matters to you that LGF and the RNC are different people. What matters is that the enthusiastic support of terrorist propaganda reveals your actual agenda.

dendragapus obscurus said...

Ok. So you admit they're not then. Glad to see where you stand on the matter.

Winston Smith said...

Hey, I wonder what happened to the "Thanks Tony!" banner on LGF.

dendragapus obscurus said...

#103 Powderfinger 5/31/2004 06:36PM PST

....


Further, I've got reason to believe that LGF watch is run by the same people who bring you Electronic Intifada.

This is bigger than simple trolling.
...



Lol!!!

This is more than simple LGF asshattedness.

Pablo. You need psychiatric help.

Chester said...

No, disagree. However, I do believe thay have a culturally and religiously imposed distortion of sexuality that causes endemic psycho-sexual disturbances, beginning with their denigration of women and girls, which bottoms out the scale in comparison to other cultures.

I love when LGFers cling to this hopeless aspect of "Asian" society.

EOr,

Please go to South Korea or Japan or China and see how women are thought of in those cultures. and before you can site that there are not covered head to toe, they are still considered a second to males in cultural priority. asian families pray for male babies, and males are the proper heirs to the family responsibilities and fortune.

you are really narrow visioned and undereducated. For that matter at what point did the Good Ole USA cave in and consider females worthy enough of weighing in and voting? I am quite sure that almost every society in existence cannot say mysogony is what separates them from Muslims.

Now, fuck off.

DR said...

pro-Hamas propaganda of Electronic Intifada

Any coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that doesn't back the Israelis unconditionally is pro-Hamas to you people.

I do believe thay have a culturally and religiously imposed distortion of sexuality that causes endemic psycho-sexual disturbances

Didn't the Nazis have a similar line of thought about the Jews?

And to finish....

It made sense to remove that, since it made the agenda of LGF Watch all too obvious to all but the eight hopeless idiotarians who post here.

The new news and views section adds more to the page than EI. They're newsfeed however informative was limited to a conflict that others sites cover in more depth. There seems to be no other agenda here apart from exposing the LGF'ers as racist, bigoted idiots. Something you are doing very well on your own......making even the loathesome pablo redundant.

dendragapus obscurus said...

The only difference between Palestinian violence and Israeli violence is the Israelis wear uniforms while they kill people.

Electronic Occupation said...

Chester, just because some other cultures are almost as bad as the Islamic world with regard to the treatment of women and girls, this doesn't negate my point. It underscores it, since we agree that the treatment is bad. Comparing the inability of American women to vote in the 19th century to such practices as clitorectomy, honor killings, female infanticide, etc., just underscores your foolishness.

Electronic Occupation said...

"The only difference between Palestinian violence and Israeli violence is the Israelis wear uniforms while they kill people."

That sums up our differences, doesn't it? There is no moral difference between a liberal democracy trying to defend itself from terror gangs and the terror gangs that wish to destroy it. Perfect.

dendragapus obscurus said...

You see a democracy. I see a brutal, violent occupying power with elastic borders and culture of opression. I see ethnic cleansing endorsed by the worlds remaining superpower and genocide of an indiginous population by the drip. I see known murderers in positions of international political and diplomatic influence.

I see a broken ass state with a non-sustainable economy and a minority of the population living in a biblical utopia with a disproportionate influence in government.

MJ said...

Palestinians who are members of Hamas are blood thirsty terrorists. Palestinians civilians are not. Unfortunately the IDF seems not to care about this difference, neither do LGF'ers. To them the Palestinian civilians are equivalent to the terrorists.

You can bang on about terror gangs and Israeli democracy. When was the last tear shed on LGF when innocent civilians are killed in Gaza? When was the last time Charles covered anything thing concerning the Israel-Palestinian conflict in depth(not just reporting death and destruction/terrorist acts/propaganda)? To be honest LGF'ers only use their 'moral outrage' at the Israeli-Palestinian situation to support their own bigotry. Few if any non-Jewish posters on LGF care or understand the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As long as the terrorists, criminals, idiots on the extreme left hijack the Palestinian cause and chickenhawks, racists and fundamentalists on the right hijack the Israeli side there will never be peace. It wouldn't be in their interests.

Chester said...

Chester, just because some other cultures are almost as bad as the Islamic world with regard to the treatment of women and girls, this doesn't negate my point. It underscores it, since we agree that the treatment is bad. Comparing the inability of American women to vote in the 19th century to such practices as clitorectomy, honor killings, female infanticide, etc., just underscores your foolishness.

No. It really doesn't put us on any kind of plane.

You expect a culture to reform from what you consider mysogony in less than a decade after 911 because you found "the sword of Islam" and now you think you are educated.

I am pointing out that you would be far more suited to solve internal problems in the country than to expect the whole world to conform to what you (only recently as history goes) consider the moral standard.

You LGF bastards bleat about moral equivelence but you are the most guilty of it. you have never travelled so you have no perspective.

STFU, STFD and listen for a while.

you are the most serious threat to this country that exists since the Klu Klux klan. As an American I will never apologize for you and your ilk. you are the enemy.

I hopoe some of the english posters will weigh in on this as well.

Living in europe I can say, stay off my side. Or even better kill yourself, so intelligent society can move on.

Pablo said...

Islam and I are sitting out this (current) battle, waiting for cooler heads to resurface and wisdom and grace to return to public discourse.

No, dawud. It's just you. Islam is neck deep in this. Islamic public discourse has a dash of denial, a pound of self-victimization and a kilo of Semtex.

Sit it out as you will. But you don't represent Islam.

Neither does Ayaan Hirsi Ali.

Pablo said...

I am pointing out that you would be far more suited to solve internal problems in the country than to expect the whole world to conform to what you (only recently as history goes) consider the moral standard.

The "moral standard" is pretty simple. Don't fuck with us.

Arabs have been practicing that dynamic forever. They understand it. Why don't you?

Pablo said...

Living in europe I can say, stay off my side. Or even better kill yourself, so intelligent society can move on.

Bat Ye'or has some things to say to you. So does Mohammed Bouyeri.

Are you paying attention?

Pablo said...

Palestinians who are members of Hamas are blood thirsty terrorists. Palestinians civilians are not.

How do you tell the difference, bd? Are you aware of how well Hamas has done in Palestinian elections?

FGL said...

Pablo, what qualifies you to decide who does and does not "represent Islam"?

Arabs have been practicing that dynamic forever.

Thats a nice sweeping generalisation based on race. Of course, you're not a racist are you Pablo?

Pablo said...

Pablo, what qualifies you to decide who does and does not "represent Islam"?

In this case, the knowledge that you can't represent your community by "sitting it out". Did that go over your head?


Thats a nice sweeping generalisation based on race. Of course, you're not a racist are you Pablo?


That's a historical fact. If you knew anything about Arab history,you wouldn't blink an eye at that observation. Of course, you're not looking to discuss facts, you're just trying to sling ad hominem, as usual.

That's because you're an idiot with nothing of substance to say.

You're not involved with the management of this site, are you?

Ask Dave Chappelle.

FGL said...

In this case, the knowledge that you can't represent your community by "sitting it out". Did that go over your head?

It didn't even get off the ground because it doesn't make sense. When the "Muzzies", as your lot call them, do condemn terrorism, your lot always assume they're lying.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=16856&only=yes

So either way, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Let me make it clear. You are not qualified to decide who represents Islam and who does not.

That's a historical fact. If you knew anything about Arab history,you wouldn't blink an eye at that observation.

Riight. So tell us what happened to the Christian inhabitants when Saladin recaptured Jerusalem. For extra points tell us what the crusaders did to the Muslim population when they captured Jerusalem.

Tell us about these historical facts Pablo. If you dare.

You may also want to think about the fact that virtually every civilisation that has ever existed has done its fair share of conquering. Well no, you wont want to think about that but I'm going to make you.

you're just trying to sling ad hominem, as usual

I've told you about this silliness before you hypocrite. Your disgusting behaviour means that you have no business telling other people about how to behave online.

Of course, this will be the third time you've ignored this rather obvious point, but hey, whos counting...

You're not involved with the management of this site, are you?

;-)

Pablo said...

When the "Muzzies", as your lot call them, do condemn terrorism, your lot always assume they're lying.

Just who is it that wants Ayaan Hirsi Ali dead? Hint: It's the same people who want Irshad Manji dead. They're muslims.

Free Muslims Against Terrorism. Google it. While I totally support them, look at how many muslims showed up for their rally against extremism.

Show me the support for outspoken muslim terror opponents. Show me the fatwas against bin Laden.

Don't just tell me that moderate muslims exist. I know that. Tell me what they're accomplishing and show me their following. Extra points if you can prove that it's growing...

Pablo said...

You're not involved with the management of this site, are you?

That's a "no" then, isn't it?

FGL said...

Whats wrong Pablo? Why don't you want to talk about the historical facts anymore? Come on! Tell me about Saladin, tell me about the crusaders!

Show us how the Arabs are so different to all other races on Earth when it comes to conquering other people and how that justifies your racist comment.

Just who is it that wants Ayaan Hirsi Ali dead? Hint: It's the same people who want Irshad Manji dead. They're muslims.

Oh well thats it then! They're Muslims, end of!

How does this proves that your decision on who "represnts Islam" is correct?

Whatever the moderate Muslims do (and they outnumber the extremists by a huge amount), it will NEVER be enough for your lot.

Think of it as an election. A tiny proportion od Muslims are terrorists, the vast majority of Muslims are regular people just getting on with their lives.

Who represents Islam? Who wins this election? Exactly.

You're not involved with the management of this site, are you?

That's a "no" then, isn't it?


No its not. Its a "mind your own business, this has got nothing to do with the issue we're talking about".

Why are you so obsessed with whether I help manage this site anyway Pablo? The more you ask the more I enjoy withholding the information. :-)

Pablo said...

Obsessed, FGL? Grab a mirror, child. Look at yourself. You're a freak.

What is your purpose here? What is it you hope to accomplish?

Pablo said...

Oh, and you've failed to address the issue at hand, once again.

I almost pity you. Almost.

FGL said...

Oh, and you've failed to address the issue at hand, once again.

Moi? I think not. You're projecting again Pablo. :)

Whats wrong Pablo? Why don't you want to talk about the historical facts anymore? Come on! Tell me about Saladin, tell me about the crusaders!

Show us how the Arabs are so different to all other races on Earth when it comes to conquering other people and how that justifies your racist comment.


Nothing to say about that ISSUE pablo?

Think of it as an election. A tiny proportion of Muslims are terrorists, the vast majority of Muslims are regular people just getting on with their lives.

Who represents Islam? Who wins this election? Exactly.


Nothing to say about this ISSUE pablo?

What is your purpose here? What is it you hope to accomplish?

How many times have people asked you that? How many times have you failed to answer?

Once you answer that question, I will do the same. :)

Now about those issues... hop to it little fella!

dawud al-gharib said...

this for the benefit of readers of this board: the day I would engage Pablo in an intellectual dialogue, thinking of him as a sane individual capable of articulate and reasonable opinions... hasn't dawned yet. his postings haven't given him any credit.

Pablo, you miserable disgrace to your family and nation: when you finish telling me what 'real Islam' is and talking about how you're fighting against it (the ideology of the terrorists? really? Osama must be frightened of you.)

I've posted Alan Godlas's page of 9/11 condemnations of terrorism from prominent muslim leaders, and there are literally thousands of muslim anti-terrorism webpages out there, two of which [for the moment and record] are:
http://notinthenameofislam.com/
http://notinthenameofpeace.com/

as for arguing with you about Ayaan Ali, I'd rather not - you know less about Somali women, cliterodectomy (which you somehow imagine is an arab issue, not an east african tribal issue, and one which al-Azhar has given a formal condemnation of) - or about muslim women in general, of which you are benightedly ignorant...

as well as Dave Chappelle - do you even know anything about him, besides that he had a television show and that he's a muslim? he used to make fun of racists and idiots, that must bother you. please rant about it inarticulately.

have a nice day.

dawud al-gharib said...

oh, for the literate web-readers:

What is the Islamic stance on the London bombings?




In the Name of God, Most Merciful and Compassionate

May God’s peace and blessings be upon His Messenger Muhammad, his folk, companions, and followers

a recently added fatwa on terrorism that might have passed some people by:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://sunnipath.com/resources/Questions/QA00005469.aspx
Q. What is the Islamic stance on the London bombings?

A. There is no Islamic justification possible for crimes against humanity, such as the recent London bombings.

The killing of innocents is against basic humanity, and has absolutely no place in the Shariah. The Shariah came to preserve five fundamental interests (maqasid): religion, life, intellect, honor, and property. Things that harm any of these are contrary to the very foundations of Divine Law.

God tells us in the Noble Qur’an:

005.032 For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever kills a human for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all humanity; and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs, but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

It is related in Imam Muslim’s Sahih, that the Hakim ibn Hizam (God be pleased with him) passed by a group of people in Sham who had been made to stand in the sun after oil had been poured over their heads. He asked, “What is this?” He was told that they were being punished for failing to pay their land tax. Hakim ibn Hizam (God be pleased with him) responded, “Truly, I have heard the Messenger of God (peace and blessings be upon him) say, ‘God shall torment those who torment others in this life.’” [Muslim, 2613]

See:

Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad: Bombing without Moonlight
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/moonlight.htm

May God make things easy for those affected, and grant us and them the strength to stand up for justice, dignity, and truth.

And God alone gives success.

Wassalam,
Faraz Rabbani
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LADUDE said...

Winston Smith,

EO, do you agree with the late Theo van Gogh's statement that all Muslims are "goatfuckers"?

He called Muslims "goat fuckers"?

Then he definitely deserved to die.

Chester said...

Well LADUDE,

As a fellow goat fucker shouldn't you be worried about yourself?

What is your nic on LGF?

Pablo said...

he used to make fun of racists and idiots, that must bother you.

No, Dave made much fun of political correctness. Do you think the "Nigger Family" bit was making fun of racists? Do you think "The Mad Real World" was making fun of racists?

No, child, it's making fun of you and that stick you have up your ass.

Allahu akbar.

dawud al-gharib said...

funny, when I met him here, while he was visiting Mecca and Madina, (making pilgrimage): he seemed really relaxed, not angry, and didn't tell me off. your theory doesn't quite work, but please do tell me more about your reading of his mind and what he's about.

oh, by the way, he's a muslim, thus his visit to mecca and madinah. do make sense of yourself, fool.